WIP Do you want to start off with telling us a little bit about yourself and your background?
JLI I’m Jelsen Lee Innocent. I am an artist, visual artist, creative director, designer. My comeuppance was, or is, graphic design in the ad world. I’m from New York, and I moved to Norway about four years ago for the best possible reason – family.

WIP What’s the biggest difference working in the US versus Norway?
JLI I can’t say I’ve had much experience working here. I’ve had some key experiences which made it clear that my cultural approach, temperament and demeanour were in conflict with the status quo in Norway regarding work environments, and their values and just how people seem to communicate here. I think we’ll talk a bit about certain experiences. But yeah, there are many differences, and depending on what you’re looking for. 

I didn’t come to Norway to work; I came here to co-parent my little baby boy. That allowed me the privilege to be highly selective. I don’t need to be in any space if it doesn’t fulfill me, or it doesn’t speak to me in a way that’s relevant to what I value. I can opt-out and work internationally.

WIP So what’s your school background?
JLI I went to college and at first my major was business. I wanted to get a master’s in business administration; that was kind of ‘my thing‘ – but, I didn’t know much about it; I just thought everything’s business one way or the other?. I used to draw all the time, and I was always into aesthetics or form; whether it was furniture, surface material, construction or whatever, I was always attracted to it.

I figured, whatever my hobby is, I can apply it as a business, I started towards a Masters in business administration. After the first semester, i realized – nope! I was actually a pretty good student then, but my classes and environment were full of, you know, ‘business people’. Dudes and gals that wanted to be the ‘head of financial institutions’ and shit. We culturally do not mix and didn’t hang out with each other. I thought, wait, if this is class, imagine what a career would look like?! I knew this was not for me.

Then I started getting into graphic design. I went to a school in Miami called Miami Ad School. I kept seeing this term Art Director in magazines, so I just started calling Art Directors up without knowing exactly what they did, asking, “What do you do? How do you do it? Where do you go to school for it?” I called three or four of them, and two recommended Miami Ad School. So I applied, got in and still didn’t really know what art direction was when I was in the school.

WIP Who do you design for? That’s that’s kind of the big question here, because Norwegian design is designed for Norwegian consumption. And I think a lot of the courses at our school are Norwegian market oriented. You suggested leaving Norway after school and getting other impressions as a good thing. But what if you create content for Norwegian consumption, and that’s all you do, then isn’t it a good thing to be very good at making things for Norwegian consumption?
JLI Yeah, absolutely. You should represent your culture, your heritage, your environment and your society as a designer or as any cultural producer. The three of us at this table have three different ideas of what it is to contribute to design within Norway. But when everyone in your class is Norwegian, it parallels how society speaks to non-Norwegians—or let’s say non-white Norwegians—there’s a vast, diverse demographic of folks that aren’t represented or even considered.

JLI I'm interested to know, Linn, what's it been like for you in the school space? How do you navigate just showing up? How do you feel othered or included as a creative?
WIP Since I'm half Norwegian and I've grown up around mostly Norwegian people, it wasn't that much of an adjustment for me. But I always wished that the horizon would've been a bit, broader. That's also why it's important to travel and not only stay in one country, as you said, you need to experience things and what better way to do that than to travel, to gain more or a different perspective — to get out of that comfort zone. As I told you earlier too, we had this one teacher from Singapore who was Asian; I'm half-Asian, and there was something about that which made me think, wow, to see someone from outside of Norway, who I could see myself in, was great. Even though he wasn't speaking about anything Asia-specific, it was just nice to see someone in that position who was not born and raised in Norway, who has worked in other places in the world, too. It was obvious that he had other perspectives and a different approach to things, and I think that it is important to show that there are different approaches, you don't need to be from another country, but everything doesn't have to be done the same way.

JLI Right. That definitely makes sense, and those are such small things, seeing someone that is not what you are used to seeing or being able to be in conversation in a way that you're not all coming from the same point of view. It's refreshing, especially as a student. It invites you to consider things differently, which is important. In terms of the monoculture, or how little ethnic diversity is presented at the school level, that extends to professionalism and the actual job market. I know of several Black creatives that studied here, grew up here, and couldn't get a job here. They have the portfolio, they're accredited, they have the skillsets, they seem to have it all. When it's consistently the same type of people that aren't getting the gig. You're not like, "Oh, I wonder why?", or "Oh, that's so weird". No, because if everyone that is hiring went to the same school, are from the same neighbourhoods, of course, nepotism will drive everything, then you add the cultural aspect, people will hire a Johanssen before a Mohamed, without thinking it through. When that's happening on an industry scale, think about all the people that are being systemically being excluded. All of this blends into different types of issues. Which expresses itself throughout academia. If everyone is from the same place, not only the staff but the student body, then that shit is going to exclude other people because; you've never seen them in class, you never considered them before, you don't value them, so you're not going to hire them, you're not going to prioritise them in any way. This is definitely a cyclical issue.

WIP Do you think with the next generation, that is going to change? As there is more exposure to different cultures and cultural events via social media and other platforms?
JLI Yeah, that's a fair assumption. It can be a common expectation based on your individual exposure or access to diverse points of view. But, I don't believe that's the case. Not unique to Norway, but I have especially recognised while here there is a difference between integration and assimilation.

For example, Somali-Norwegian? Somali – but, Norwegian? Norwegian, with Somali background?

Often times, since even kindergarten, their identity is being challenged, "You're not Norwegian-Norwegian" along with whatever negative projections on what being a foreigner is, so they're constantly battling this whole "Which one am I?" when you're both, one in citizenship and cultural, to an extent, and the other in heritage. It's important to be able to be both those things without being reprimanded, yet this dynamic  shows up in whether you're accepted or considered for certain jobs. At the same time, we need equal access, and that's equity, but the only way that happens is if that's directly addressed. Like those embarrassing examples of people changing their surnames to be considered for a job, that there says a lot about the culture you're navigating.

LH Yeah, that is the reality, and I've thought about it many times, too; that I'm grateful to have a very Norwegian name. I mean, I think it's different for a Black person compared to an Asian person cause there are certain assumptions about what field an Asian person is good at, different stereotypes. I think it is more of a conversation than it was before, so people are more aware, but it doesn't mean that it is on the right path or going to change.
JLI Yes, and here's the thing, the rhetoric is real, "we want more this and that", but the way it is applied is based on your actual values. So diversity, from what I've seen in Scandinavia, frequently isn't even about race. There is a lot of derailing or avoiding the core issue for a more comfortable subject matter. The only way there will be change, systemically, is if, culturally, it becomes a priority, and I don't see how that is happening here, at all. There is no incentive for that to happen. Industries are doing it; they're going to cast a Black person, a Muslim in a hijab, but they're not part of the actual infrastructure, they're not included in the decision-making, it's not part of an actual cultural initiative of xyz. It's just tokenism and it’s aesthetics, which goes back to design. We are in a position where we have a skillset, and our role, in one way, is to present ideals for the masses to reflect on or project themselves against. The way it is happening here, when it comes to "diversity", is aesthetic-based.

WIP Which is related to how you go about networking, what are you thoughts on that?
JLI You mentioned earlier in terms of being from here Norway and wanting to contribute to what design is here, that's massive, and that's important. What's also great is to get out and interact and engage with other spaces. right? Not to be confined, geographically. It's not about not prioritising your own culture and your cultural landscape, but more about being curious and embracing others.

The reality is that there are other ways to go about certain things as a creative and from a geopolitical standpoint, your passport allows you to be the fuck anywhere. So, why wouldn’t you take that up opportunity?

You can literally go to school in London or get an internship anywhere, and I think that’s a type of opportunity to consider — especially when you’re a part of such a small market — if I can put it that way. The people you are currently studying with are going to have more or less the same portfolio then you’re going to be applying for the same 8 to 12 jobs in the one city. Why not just get out of here, you can always come back. Especially at the beginning of your career, where it’s about establishing your portfolio, your voice and how you want to navigate your career.

Why not pursue design someplace else and have a completely different client list than your peers would if they stayed in Norway? I’d call that getting an edge or an advantage you all actually have access to, but it seems that the schools don't promote it, which is wild to me.

As far as your network goes, you should be reaching out to people all the time. All the studios you want to apply to; you should be talking to them now. In general, being a student allows you VIP access to these institutions. “Oh, what do you want to know? What’s up? Yeah, how can I help?” Instead of, “Hey, look at my portfolio”. Approach with, “Hey, I have a couple of questions”...“I’m interested in going into whatever field”, “I like what you guys do. Do you have time for a call?”

While you’re a student, you’re in the least threatening position possible to professionals. I don’t know how open agencies are, but the thing is to start with, “Hey, I’m a student at X, Y, Z” because, most likely, they went to the same school. Use that network. Use the alumn currency and start having conversations because these resources are an extension of your institution. It’s unfortunate that the staff or administration’s not encouraging this. People that graduated two years ago, three years ago, five years ago, hit them up and then hit up the person that’s at the top of the studio, too.

Most students leave school merely with a portfolio saying, “Hire me, please?” Instead, suppose you’re approaching them with language and a better understanding on how the business operates and what sort of candidates they’re looking for? You can position yourself in a more compelling way for a job, and you’ll be able to negotiate your salary with more confidence because of the conversations you’ve had within your expanding network. For this entry-level X, at this size of an agency or studio, I should get between this and this. Then tell your fucking peers instead of gatekeeping knowledge!

WIP You have an interesting name. Are you innocent?
JLI I am. Until proven guilty. It has yet to happen.

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